209 Conversion questions...

[SGTDan]

After 35 years of shooting pure black powder, I am ready for the challenges of using BP substitutes...specifically BH209. It works like a champ in my TC Bone Collector and I want to see if it has any potential in my long-range ML rifle.

My rifle for this project is a Knight DE658B Target made about 1998-2005...give or take a couple years. It is a .45 caliber rifle with 1:18 twist...perfect for heavier slugs...but more on that in another topic at a later date. It has the old style 209 Full Plastic Jacket ignition system plus a No. 11 percussion cap ignition system that I installed after purchase of the rifle. The percussion cap ignition system with pure BP works like a champ, I simply want to explore the 209 ignition system with BH209 propellent...but not with the old 209 Full Plastic Jacket process.

Knight Rifles has a 209 conversion system listed as an accessory for the DISC Extreme...they told me yesterday that this would simply screw into my DE658B breech and I would be good to go; however, I have some questions:

1. The end of the striker (firing pin) in my rifle is fairly large as it was used to ignite No. 11 percussion caps. Will that work for the 209 primers?

2. From the photo on their site, it appears that the 209 primer will simply butt up to the end of the tube of the breech plug and shoot the flame into the hole to ignite the powder charge...much like the old 209 system. Is that correct, or does the 209 primer actually go into the tube of the breech plug?

3. Will I need to get another striker (firing pin) to make the above work?

4. Scattered around a number of BP and ML forums are references to Lehigh 209 conversion kits...similar to the one Knight sells. Are they the same and does Lehigh still make them?

Some assistance would be appreciated...photos are especially helpful if you have some available. Thanks in advance.

Dan

[GMB54-120]

I cant really help much on the firing pin diameter. The info for the DE658B in the 2006 catalog only mentions FPJ 209 ignition. That Knight is very very rare and little info is available. Most people dont even know it exists.

If you bought a new Western conversion for caps then the bare 209 primer conversion from Knight should fit also. The breach plug is a little different than the original Lehigh but he designed both of them. As far as i know the only difference is the vent liner is not removable in the plug Knight sells. The bare 209 adapter replaces the jacket (FPJ) in the bolt and you load a bare 209 primer into the installed adapter. The adapter is VERY easy to install in the bolt. Then you simply close the bolt when you are ready to fire. After firing, you open the bolt and tilt the action. The primer will just fall out most of the time. Regular Win209s are recommended even for BH209. The plug works so well, mag primers are not needed. Just clean the flash channel as recommend on Blackhorn's website with a 5/32 drill bit.

The 1-18 twist should work great with the 200gr Bloodline and the heavy Precision Rifle Extreme, Dead Center and QT bullets. There might be a new 230gr Bloodline coming soon also. More common bullets like the 200gr SST and Barnes 195gr aka Knight Redhot should shoot fine also. 180gr bullets or lighter might need a lighter powder charge for best accuracy.

IMO if you know how to properly size a .451-.452 bullet to fit your bore, sabotless will be the way to go with BH209 in a fast twist 45. Properly sized 300gr jacketed bullets can easily reach 2100fps with good accuracy and sometimes excellent accuracy. Ive seen a custom 1-18 twist 45 shoot a 350gr bullet at nearly 2000fps with 120gr by volume of BH209. Ive seen 250gr jacketed bullets getting into the 2300fps range also.

[GMB54-120]

The adapter looks like this when installed in the bolt


It goes in the bolt like this



The primer goes in the opening indicated by the red arrow AFTER you reinstall the bolt.


And looks like this when the bolt is closed and ready to fire.

[hubby11]

Awesome pics!!!

[GMB54-120]

Speaking of PICs...lets see some of the DE658B!!!!!!!!

Pictures of both bolt assemblies removed from the action would help too. A rough idea of the serial number would also be appreciated. Knight couldn't have sold very many. My DE based GMB54-120 is sub 50 out of 250 that were supposed to have been made. I know for sure less than that ever sold. I can account for less than 10 on the forums with #62 being the highest. Your Target model is the first one ive heard of being purchased in the modern muzzleloading forums.

[GMB54-120]

Awesome pics!!!

They sure are!!!

I was too lazy to dig mine out of Photobucket and your timing was perfect on MM.

[SGTDan]

My DE658B Target was purchased in October 2006 from a shop in Baldwin WI...the serial number is 001290...it was purchased new by a good friend of the shop owner...he traded it in after one or two years at which point I purchased it. A couple targets with load data were also in the box...my results are equally as good so this rifle's reputation for accuracy is solid.

In the interest of a quick history, I had called the factory in Iowa just prior to the above purchase with the intent of purchasing a DE658B...I had a catalog and was excited about the 45 cal. GM barrel with a 1:18 twist. My intent was serious long range ML with cast slugs, not the small pistol slugs in a sabot. Factory salesperson told me they had several left in inventory...the next day I received a call telling me that there was no inventory left and they were not going to make them again. After I calmed down, they sent me to the dealer in WI to see if he could help me find one. The dealer told me that his good friend would possibly be bringing in a DE658B to trade for another firearm. Two weeks later he brought it in and that afternoon it was on its way to me.

I purchased the No. 11 percussion cap conversion for the rifle and have not been disappointed with the performance using real black powder. The process now will be using BH209 propellent with 209A primers...I have no interest in the FPJ primer system which is why I started this thread.

Firearm specific forums are great for sharing info and I will certainly do that...including photos. Thanks to everyone who has responded. Early next week is when the photos and more data on the DE658B will be shared on this forum. For those who are interested, I live in SE South Dakota.

[GMB54-120]

Wow, im surprised the serial is that high. Im sure its a shooter.